(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN.
PLEASE BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE
HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
THE COURT: MY APOLOGIES TO YOU
FOR THE DELAY IN GETTING
STARTED. WE HAD A NUMBER OF ISSUES THAT WE HAD TO TAKE UP AT
THE
BEGINNING OF THE COURT DAY AND WE ARE JUST GETTING AROUND NOW TO
THE PRESENTATION OF EVIDENCE.
I'M SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEMS AND DIFFICULTIES
THAT WE ALWAYS HAVE.
PRESENT IN THE COURTROOM IS DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN.
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE
WITNESS STAND.
MARK FUHRMAN,
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT,
RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN IS PRESENT ON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY.
GOOD MORNING AGAIN, DETECTIVE.
THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN,
YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE
STILL UNDER OATH.
MR. BAILEY, YOU MAY RESUME WITH YOUR
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MR. BAILEY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. BAILEY:
Q DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO REVIEW WITH YOU
THE STEPS YOU HAVE TAKEN TO PREPARE YOURSELF FOR TESTIMONY IN
THIS CASE.
WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME FOLLOWING THE PRELIMINARY
HEARING THAT YOU MET WITH ONE OF THE PROSECUTORS, THOSE AT THE
TABLE AND THOSE NOT AT THE TABLE, THAT YOU KNOW TO BE CONNECTED
WITH THIS CASE, TO DISCUSS THE CASE AND/OR YOUR TESTIMONY?
A ARE YOU SAYING
POST-PRELIM, SIR?
Q POST-PRELIMINARY
HEARING.
A PROBABLY WITHIN
THE LAST MONTH, MONTH AND A HALF.
Q DO I UNDERSTAND
THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO CONTACT
BETWEEN YOU AND ANY OF THE PROSECUTORS IN THIS CASE UP UNTIL
1995?
A WE HAVEN'T
TALKED ABOUT THIS TESTIMONY, NO.
Q ABOUT THIS
CASE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? YOU ARE VERY
MUCH A PART OF THIS CASE, AREN'T YOU?
A YES, SIR.
Q YEAH.
AND YOU CAUSED THAT BY FINDING AN IMPORTANT
PIECE OF EVIDENCE, DIDN'T YOU?
A YES, SIR.
Q YOU KNEW FULL
WELL THAT ONCE YOU CAME UP WITH A PIECE
OF EVIDENCE OF THAT SORT THERE WASN'T ANYBODY THAT COULD GET YOU
OUT OF THIS CASE BECAUSE YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL WITNESS,
RIGHT?
DID YOU KNOW THAT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: WHAT IS THE OBJECTION?
MS. CLARK: WITHDRAWN.
THE COURT: WITHDRAWN. THANK
YOU.
THE OBJECTION WAS WITHDRAWN.
THE WITNESS: SIR, THE WAY YOU
PHRASED THAT, "GET ME OUT OF
THIS CASE"? I WASN'T TRYING TO GET OUT OF THIS CASE.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO GET YOU OUT.
YOU TOLD US THAT IN SOME DETAIL YESTERDAY. YOU WERE OUT YOU
THOUGHT?
A OH, YOU MEAN
THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CASE?
Q YEAH.
A YES, SIR.
Q YOU THOUGHT
YOU WERE OFF THE CASE AS A DETECTIVE.
WHEN YOU STOOD FOR AN HOUR AT THE INTERSECTION OF
DOROTHY AND BUNDY, YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE THROUGH, DIDN'T YOU?
A I'M STILL
A DETECTIVE, SIR, BUT AS FAR AS BEING THE
LEAD INVESTIGATOR, YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q YOU THOUGHT
YOU WERE OFF THE CASE? ISN'T THAT WHAT
YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
BUT WHEN YOU TURNED OUT TO FIND THIS GLOVE OVER AT
ROCKINGHAM, YOU KNEW THAT YOU WOULD BE ON THE CASE AS LONG AS IT
LASTED, DIDN'T YOU?
A NO.
Q YOU DIDN'T
KNOW THAT THE GLOVE COULD NOT BE PUT IN
EVIDENCE IN A CRIMINAL CASE WITHOUT THE PERSON WHO FOUND IT
SAYING UNDER OATH WHERE HE FOUND IT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN
EVIDENCE, CALLS FOR AN INCORRECT LEGAL CONCLUSION AND
SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
DID YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD BE AN
ESSENTIAL WITNESS IF YOU WERE THE FIRST TO FIND AN IMPORTANT
PIECE OF EVIDENCE?
A WELL, I COULDN'T
MAKE THAT DETERMINATION AT THAT
TIME, SIR. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE IMPLICATION OF THE GLOVE
WAS.
Q YOU TOLD US
THE MINUTE YOU SAW IT YOU THOUGHT IT
LOOKED LIKE THE ONE ON BUNDY, DIDN'T YOU, SIR?
A YES, SIR,
I THOUGHT IT LOOKED LIKE.
Q YOU ARE A
TRAINED DETECTIVE?
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL,
FROM YESTERDAY, BOTH OF
YOU, LET HIM FINISH ANSWERING THE QUESTION BEFORE YOU BEGIN TO
ASK ANOTHER ONE.
MR. BAILEY, LET HIM FINISH THE ANSWER. YOU ARE
DRIVING THE COURT REPORTER NUTS.
MR. BAILEY: THAT WE CERTAINLY
DON'T WANT TO DO.
Q DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN, HAD YOU FINISHED THE ANSWER YOU
WERE GIVING?
A I'M NOT SURE.
IF YOU WOULD REPEAT THE QUESTION, I
WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER ANSWER.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU TELL US YESTERDAY THAT WHEN YOU SPOTTED THIS
GLOVE, AS YOU CLAIM, THAT YOU RECOGNIZED IT AS ONE THAT LOOKED
SIMILAR TO THE ONE ON BUNDY?
A YES.
Q AND THAT YOU
KNEW THAT THE ONE ON BUNDY, I BELIEVE
YOU SAID, WAS A LEFT-HANDED GLOVE OR BELIEVED IT TO BE, DID YOU
NOT?
A NO.
Q DID NOT?
YOU NOTICED THAT THIS APPEARED TO BE A
RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE?
A YES.
Q AND THE REASON
THAT YOU HAD THREE DETECTIVES IN THREE
SEPARATE TRIPS TRAMPLE BACK ALONG THAT PATH WAS BECAUSE YOU
WANTED TO POINT OUT TO THEM THE FACT THAT THIS GLOVE LOOKED LIKE
A MATCH FOR THE ONE THEY HAD SEEN OVER AT THE CRIME SCENE ON
BUNDY; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
A NOT ENTIRELY.
I JUST WANTED TO SHOW THEM THE
EVIDENCE THAT I THOUGHT I FOUND.
Q DIDN'T YOU
SAY TO THEM, "IN MY VIEW THIS LOOKS
SIMILAR," OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT?
A I BELIEVE
I SAID THAT TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, BUT I
DON'T BELIEVE I WENT INTO THAT DETAIL WITH THE OTHER TWO
DETECTIVES, NO.
Q DID YOU SAY
ANYTHING WHEN YOU TOOK MR. VANNATTER BACK
THERE? ANYTHING AT ALL?
A I'M NOT SURE
EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID. I
BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TALKED TO VANNATTER AND LANGE. THEY
JOINED ME AND I TOOK THEM BACK THE PATH.
Q I DIDN'T
ASK YOU THAT, SIR.
WHAT I ASKED YOU WAS WHETHER OR NOT DURING THE TRIP
YOU HAVE DESCRIBED, TRIP NO. 2, ACTUALLY NO. 3, IF YOU COUNT YOUR
OWN, DID DETECTIVE PHILIP VANNATTER, THE BOSS IN THIS CASE, DID
YOU SHARE WITH HIM YOUR OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE GLOVE OR DID YOU
JUST REMAIN SILENT?
A I COULD HAVE
SHARED THOSE OBSERVATIONS, YES. I DON'T
RECALL SPECIFICALLY.
Q YOU RECALL
PHILLIPS BUT YOU DON'T RECALL DETECTIVE
VANNATTER; IS THAT RIGHT?
A INITIALLY
I JUST REMEMBER TALKING TO PHILLIPS.
Q LET'S GO TO
DETECTIVE LANGE.
YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BRING THE
THIRD MEMBER OF THE FOUR-MAN TEAM BACK TO LOOK, DIDN'T YOU?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE LANGE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT
THE RELEVANCE OF THAT GLOVE TO YOUR INVESTIGATION?
A I DON'T BELIEVE
I TALKED ABOUT RELEVANCE.
Q WELL, WITHOUT
USING THE WORD "RELEVANCE," JUST POLICE
TALK, DID YOU SAY "THIS LOOKS IMPORTANT, TOM"?
A NO.
Q WHAT DID YOU
SAY?
A I SAID, "IT
LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE SIMILAR TO THE ONE
ON BUNDY."
Q YOU HAVE TOLD
US A NUMBER OF TIMES THAT ONE OF THE
THINGS YOU NOTICED ABOUT THE GLOVE WAS THAT IT WAS MOIST AND
STICKY, CORRECT?
A YES, YES.
Q AND DID YOU
POINT THAT OUT TO
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THAT NOT ONLY DID IT LOOK LIKE THE GLOVE FROM
BUNDY, BUT THAT IT APPEARED TO HAVE A SUBSTANCE ON IT MAKING IT
STICKY WHICH COULD WELL HAVE BEEN BLOOD?
A I'M NOT SURE
IF I DID OR IF I DIDN'T.
Q BUT IT HAD
BEEN THROUGH YOUR MIND, HADN'T IT?
A YES.
Q AND THE STICKY
PART I TAKE IT YOU OBSERVED WHEN YOU
TOOK THAT LITTLE TINY FLASHLIGHT OF YOURS AND SHINED IT ON THE
GLOVE AND SAW SOMETHING OF A SHINY NATURE, AS OPPOSED TO A CAKED
OR DRY SURFACE?
A IT APPEARED
THAT IT HAD SOMEWHAT OF A GLEAN OR A
GLISTEN TO IT.
Q OKAY.
NOW, MY QUESTION IS DID YOU BRING THAT TO THE
ATTENTION OF DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A I COULD HAVE.
Q DID YOU BRING
IT TO THE ATTENTION OF DETECTIVE LANGE?
A I COULD HAVE.
Q DID YOU BRING
IT TO THE ATTENTION OF DETECTIVE
VANNATTER?
A I COULD HAVE.
Q YOU DON'T
HAVE A MEMORY OF ANY OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS
AS WE SIT HERE?
A I DON'T HAVE
A MEMORY OF A SPECIFIC COMMENT THAT I
MADE TO ANY OF THOSE DETECTIVES WHEN WE WERE STANDING BY THE
GLOVE.
Q WERE YOU MORE
INTERESTED IN SHOWING EACH DETECTIVE
INDIVIDUALLY THE GLOVE OR MORE INTERESTED IN TRAMPLING UP THE
PATHWAY?
A WELL, OBVIOUSLY
I WAS INTERESTED IN SHOWING EACH
DETECTIVE SEPARATELY AND GET A SEPARATE POINT OF VIEW OF WHAT
THEY WERE VIEWING, AS I DID.
Q IS IT YOUR
PRACTICE, WHEN SOMETHING IS DISCOVERED, TO
PROHIBIT DETECTIVES, EXCEPT ONE AT A TIME, TO SEE YOUR DISCOVERY?
IS THAT THE WAY YOU USUALLY OPERATE?
A AT A CRIME
SCENE YOU WOULD WANT TO BRING IN AS FEW
PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE INTO AN AREA.
Q AS FEW PEOPLE
AS POSSIBLE. EIGHTEEN SETS OF FEET IS
A FEW PEOPLE?
A WELL, IF WE
DID IT ALL AT THE SAME TIME IT WOULD HAVE
BEEN EVEN WORSE.
Q IT WOULD?
A YES.
Q WOULDN'T YOU
THINK THE FIRST FOUR TRIPS WOULD BE
ENOUGH TO BLOT OUT ANY FOOTPRINTS OF THE PERPETRATOR, IF ANY
THERE WERE?
A I DIDN'T SEE
EVIDENCE OF ANY FOOTPRINTS.
Q YOU WOULDN'T
SEE ANY FOOTPRINTS IN LEAVES, WOULD YOU,
DETECTIVE? YOU KNOW THAT TAKES AN EXPERT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
DO YOU HAVE SOME TRAINING ABOUT WHAT
CRIMINALISTS DO?
A YES, SIR.
Q DID YOU TELL
US YESTERDAY YOU HAD TAKEN A COURSE
WHEREIN FOOTPRINTS OF VARIOUS KINDS WERE DISCUSSED?
A THERE WAS
NOT A SPECIFIC COURSE, BUT YES, IT WAS
MENTIONED.
Q I SAID YOU
TOOK A COURSE WHEREIN FOOTPRINTS WERE
DISCUSSED? IS THAT TRUE?
A NOT JUST FOOTPRINTS,
SIR. THAT WAS PART OF A --
Q I DIDN'T SAY
JUST FOOTPRINTS.
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. LET
HIM FINISH.
MR. BAILEY: OH, OKAY.
THE WITNESS: IT WAS PART OF A
COURSE OR A SCHOOL.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
I UNDERSTAND THAT. IT WAS A COURSE
WHEREIN FOOTPRINTS WERE DISCUSSED, WAS IT NOT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU LEARN ABOUT LATENT FOOTPRINTS IN
THAT COURSE?
A IT COULD HAVE
BEEN MENTIONED.
Q AND WHAT IS
A LATENT FOOTPRINT? WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO
THE COURT AND JURY YOUR UNDERSTANDING?
A IT IS A PRINT
THAT IS NOT VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE.
Q HOW CAN IT
BE VIEWED BY AN EXPERT, IF YOU WERE
TAUGHT, SO THAT IT BECOMES PERCEIVABLE?
A I'M SURE THERE
IS SOME TYPE OF A CHEMICAL PROCESS,
OBLIQUE LIGHTING, QUITE POSSIBLY MAYBE SOME TYPE OF INFRARED, OR
AS I SAID, CHEMICAL PROCESS, BUT I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN THAT AREA.
Q NOW, WHEN
YOU FIRST SAW WHAT YOU CLAIM WAS A BROWN
OBJECT LAYING ON THE GROUND, AS YOU APPROACHED IT AND YOU NOTICED
THAT IT WAS A GLOVE, PERHAPS A MATCH OF THE ONE YOU HAD SEEN AT
BUNDY, DID YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SHOULD NEXT DO?
A YES.
Q DID IT --
DID YOU THEN EXAMINE, BY THE WAY, THE
SHRUBBERY OVER THE CHAINLINK FENCE WHERE SOMEONE COULD
CONCEIVABLY HAVE CLIMBED OVER?
A I DIDN'T --
I DIDN'T FOCUS MY ATTENTION TO THE
SHRUBBERY AT THAT TIME, NO.
Q DID YOU INSPECT
IT TO SEE WHETHER IT WAS DAMAGED IN
ANY WAY CONSISTENT WITH INTRUSION?
A THAT WHOLE
AREA WAS OVERGROWN AND DIRTY. THAT WOULD
BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO MAKE THAT CONCLUSION.
Q DID YOU LOOK
FOR BROKEN TWIGS OR LEAVES THAT WERE
DAMAGED IN THE SHRUBBERY ABOVE THE CHAINLINK FENCE AT THE SITUS
WHERE THE GLOVE WAS SEEN?
A I DID NOT
LOOK, BUT I DID NOT SEE ANY OF THAT.
Q SO YOU DIDN'T
HAVE AT THAT POINT ANY INTEREST IN
WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE HAD DROPPED THE GLOVE COMING OVER THE
FENCE?
A MY INTEREST
AT THAT POINT WAS WHO LEFT THE GLOVE AND
WHAT CONDITION THEY WERE IN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
LET'S ANALYZE THAT.
YOU SAID "WHAT CONDITION THEY WERE IN." WHAT DO YOU
MEAN BY THAT?
A WELL, THERE
APPEARED TO BE SOMETHING ON THE GLOVE
THAT COULD BE BLOOD.
Q THAT'S RIGHT.
WHICH COULD WELL HAVE GOTTEN THERE IF
THE KILLER HAD WORN IT WHILE SLAUGHTERING NICOLE BROWN AND RONALD
GOLDMAN, CORRECT?
A POSSIBLY.
Q WELL, DID
YOU THINK OF THAT,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A I THOUGHT
OF A LOT OF THINGS AT THAT TIME.
Q DID YOU THINK
OF THAT?
A THAT ALONG
WITH OTHERS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WELL, LET'S TAKE THEM ONE AT A TIME.
YOU CONSIDERED THAT THIS GLOVE COULD
HAVE BEEN USED IN THOSE SLAYINGS AND THAT WAS OF SIGNIFICANCE,
CORRECT?
A COULD HAVE,
YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU DECIDE TO INQUIRE FURTHER AS A DETECTIVE TO
TRY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE AS TO WHAT IT WAS AND HOW IT GOT THERE?
A AT THAT POINT
I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR A PERSON THAT
LEFT IT.
Q OKAY.
NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PERSON THAT LEFT IT.
I'M SURE THAT AS YOU STOOD THERE LOOKING AT AN
INSTRUMENTALITY OF A BRUTAL MURDER WHOSE SCENE YOU HAD JUST
VISITED A SHORT TIME BEFORE YOU BEGAN TO THINK ABOUT THE NATURE
OF THE PERSON THAT MIGHT HAVE HAD CONTROL AND CUSTODY OF THAT
GLOVE, CORRECT?
A NO.
Q YOU DIDN'T?
A NO.
Q WELL, DID
YOU THINK A VICTIM, SOME VICTIM YOU HADN'T
DISCOVERED, MIGHT HAVE TAKEN A GLOVE FROM THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
AND DEPOSITED IT ON O.J. SIMPSON'S PROPERTY?
A SIR, I HAD
NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING AT THAT POINT.
Q DID YOU THINK
THAT?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU THINK THAT POSSIBLY SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN
INVOLVED AS A KILLER MIGHT HAVE DEPOSITED THAT GLOVE WITTINGLY OR
UNWITTINGLY ON MR. SIMPSON'S PROPERTY?
A I DID NOT
THINK OF ANY OF THESE THINGS AT THAT TIME.
Q YOU DIDN'T
THINK OF ANY OF THESE THINGS?
A NO.
Q DID YOU THINK
THAT POSSIBLY WHOEVER PUT THAT GLOVE
THERE, IF IT WAS PUT THERE, WAS SOMEBODY DANGEROUS?
A POSSIBLY.
Q WHAT TRAINING
DO YOU HAVE ABOUT WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU
SENSE DANGER? WHAT IS YOUR FIRST OBLIGATION?
A I DON'T THINK
I UNDERSTAND THAT.
Q YOU DON'T?
A NO.
Q THE SAFETY
OF THE OFFICER, I BELIEVE YOU SAID
YESTERDAY, IS A PARAMOUNT CONSIDERATION IN POLICE WORK?
A IF YOU PHRASE
IT LIKE THAT, MY OWN SAFETY, CORRECT.
Q ALL
RIGHT.
NOW, WHAT THOUGHTS WERE YOU HAVING ABOUT YOUR SAFETY
WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING AT WHAT YOU THOUGHT MIGHT HAVE BEEN DROPPED
BY A KILLER?
A AT THAT TIME
I WAS THINKING THAT WHO IS WATCHING ME
AT THIS TIME.
Q AHA.
DID YOU HAVE ANY CONCERN AT ALL THAT YOU MIGHT
BE ATTACKED?
A POSSIBLY.
Q YOU ARE A
POLICE OFFICER STANDING THERE WITH HIS
WEAPON STICKING OUT FOR ALL TO SEE, WEREN'T YOU?
A YES.
Q ON YOUR HIP?
A YES.
Q THAT WOULD
REPRESENT IN YOUR VIEW SOME KIND OF THREAT
TO SOMEBODY WITH BLOOD ON HIS HANDS, WOULDN'T IT?
A YES.
Q YOU HAD NO
REASON TO THINK THAT WHOEVER WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT GLOVE WAS WOUNDED, DID YOU?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID YOU SEE
ANY BLOOD LEADING TO OR FROM THE GLOVE IN
ANY DIRECTION, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A NO.
Q WELL, IF THEY
WERE WOUNDED, DID YOU THINK THEY HAD
BEEN TO A DOCTOR AND GOT FIXED UP?
A I COULDN'T
SPECULATE ON THAT, SIR.
Q WELL, WHY
DID YOU THINK THEY WERE WOUNDED? YOU TELL
ME?
A SOMEONE LEAVING
THE SCENE AT BUNDY WAS BLEEDING FROM
THE LEFT SIDE OF THEIR BODY.
Q YOU ARE SURE
OF THAT?
A I'M NOT SURE,
BUT AT THAT TIME THAT WAS A CONCLUSION
THAT WE HAD MADE.
Q A CONCLUSION
THAT YOU HAD MADE.
DID YOU EVER STUDY ANYTHING ABOUT BLOOD, DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN?
A (NO AUDIBLE
RESPONSE.)
Q BLOOD AND
BLOOD SPATTER, WAS THAT PART OF YOUR COURSE
BEFORE YOU BECAME A DETECTIVE?
A BRIEFLY, YES.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT READING BLOOD SPOTS TO
DETERMINE THEIR ORIGIN?
A THEIR ORIGIN,
SIR?
Q YES.
A IN OTHER WORDS,
HOW THEY --
Q HOW THEY GOT
THERE?
A IN A GENERAL
SENSE, YES.
Q FIRST THING
YOU LEARNED IS THAT A SPOT WHICH IS ROUND
HAS BEEN DROPPED FROM SOME OBJECT OR PERSON THAT IS NOT IN
MOTION, DID YOU NOT?
A THAT WOULD
BE CORRECT.
Q AND WHEN A
SPOT IS DROPPED BY SOMEONE WHO IS BLEEDING
AND MOVING, IT LEAVES A DIFFERENT SHAPE ON A HARD SURFACE, SUCH
AS THE CONCRETE OF THAT WALKWAY, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND THE SPOTS
THAT YOU SAW ON THE ONES THAT WERE
PHOTOGRAPHED FOR THIS CASE WERE ROUND, WEREN'T THEY?
A THEY APPEARED
TO BE ROUND, YES.
Q YES.
AND SO IF THIS WAS ASSOCIATED WITH A KILLER,
WHAT YOU WERE RECONSTRUCTING AND DETECTING IN YOUR OWN MIND WAS
SOMEONE LEAVING THE SCENE OF A VERY BLOODY DOUBLE ASSASSINATION
AND PERIODICALLY STOPPING AND DRIPPING AS HE WENT?
IS THAT WHAT YOU THOUGHT?
A NO.
Q WELL, YOU
KNEW THAT THEY WEREN'T DROPPED BY ANYONE
WHO WAS RUNNING, JUST FROM THE SHAPE, DIDN'T YOU?
A I'M NOT AN
EXPERT IN THAT FIELD, SO I DIDN'T KNOW
EXACTLY WHAT TRANSPIRED ON THAT WALKWAY.
Q YOU JUST HAD
SUCH TRAINING YOU TOLD
US --.
A I DIDN'T SAY
--
Q SORRY.
I HADN'T FINISHED THE QUESTION.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --
THE COURT: WAIT.
MR. BAILEY: MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION?
THE WITNESS: ABSOLUTELY, SIR.
Q BY MR.
BAILEY: I BELIEVE YOU SAID YOU HAD ENOUGH
TRAINING TO RECOGNIZE THAT A ROUND SPOT WAS NOT MADE BY SOMETHING
IN MOTION? DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT?
A NO.
Q OH, YOU DIDN'T?
A NO.
I SAID A ROUND SPOT WAS CONSISTENT WITH SOMEONE
THAT IS NOT IN MOTION, BUT I NEVER VIEWED THOSE DROPS TO ANY MORE
EXTENT THAN TO SAY THAT THEY WERE ROUND. I NEVER WENT BACK AND
INSPECTED THEM.
Q I UNDERSTAND.
YOU WERE A DETECTIVE IN THIS CASE AND THE FIRST ONE
ON THE SCENE TO DO ANY REAL DETECTING, WEREN'T YOU?
A YES.
Q THESE WERE
POINTED OUT TO YOU BY A PATROLMAN NAMED
RISKE, RIGHT?
A YES, SIR.
Q WELL, DID
HE TAKE HIS RATHER POWERFUL FLASHLIGHT AND
STOP AT EACH DROP AND ILLUMINATE IT SO THAT YOU COULD VIEW IT?
A WE DID NOT
STOP AT EVERY DROP, NO.
Q DID YOU JUST
RUN BY AND CATCH THEM ON THE FLY? HOW
DID YOU VIEW THEM?
A HE IS EXPLAINING
THE SCENE. HE IS WALKING US THROUGH
THE SCENE. WE DID NOT STOP AND INSPECT EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE
FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME EVERY TIME.
Q LET'S BACK
UP THEN.
DO YOU NOW WISH TO SAY THAT YOU DON'T KNOW, AS OF
THAT EVENING, DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE ROUND OR OTHERWISE?
A I'M NOT SAYING
THAT, SIR.
I'M SAYING THEY APPEARED ROUND, BUT I AM NOT AN
EXPERT TO DETERMINE HOW OR AT WHAT HEIGHT OR AT WHAT SPEED THE
PERSON IS MOVING. I CAN'T TESTIFY TO THAT.
Q I THOUGHT
YOU SAID THAT YOU LEARNED IN SCHOOL THAT
ROUND IS IN CONSISTENT WITH MOTION PERIOD. IS THAT WHAT YOU
MEANT TO SAY?
A NO, IT ISN'T
WHAT I MEANT TO SAY.
Q OKAY.
DO YOU KNOW OR WERE YOU EVER SHOWN WHAT A BLOOD DROP
LOOKS LIKE IF IT HAS BEEN DROPPED TO A HARD SURFACE BY SOMEONE
MOVING?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU
KNOW THAT THE FASTER A PERSON IS MOVING
THE MORE ELONGATED THE SHAPE OF THE DROP AS IT COMES TO REST?
A YES, IT WOULD
BE.
Q OKAY.
NOW, DID YOU HAVE ANY WAY TO KNOW HOW LONG THOSE
DROPS HAD BEEN ON THAT WALKWAY? THAT IS, ANY AGING IN THAT WAY?
A NO.
Q NO.
OKAY.
NOW, COMING BACK, IF WE WILL, IF WE MAY, TO BUNDY,
WAS IT NOT REALLY YOUR IDEA TO SCALE THE WALL AND GO INTO MR.
SIMPSON'S HOUSE, PREMISES?
A DETECTIVE
VANNATTER MADE A STATEMENT THAT WE SHOULD
GO IN AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT AND I SAID, "WELL, I WILL GO
OVER THE WALL."
Q DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN, IN FACT, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU
WENT TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND URGED UPON HIM THAT THIS WAS AN
EMERGENCY SITUATION, THAT ACTION HAD TO BE TAKEN IMMEDIATELY,
THAT THERE MIGHT BE VICTIMS BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE THE
PREMISES, AND YOU FELT SOMETHING HAD TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW?
ISN'T THAT WHAT HAPPENED?
A NO.
THAT WAS A CONVERSATION BETWEEN VANNATTER,
MYSELF, AND BOTH OF US EXPERIENCED THE SAME CONCERNS.
Q DID YOU SAY
TO HIM "IN MY VIEW THIS IS AN EMERGENCY
AND WE NEED TO ACT NOW"?
A YES.
Q DID YOU NOT
SAY THAT TO HIM BEFORE HE MADE ANY SUCH
STATEMENT TO YOU?
A HE WAS MAKING
SIMILAR STATEMENTS TO ME AT THE SAME
TIME IN THIS CONVERSATION.
Q AND DID YOU
VOLUNTEER TO BE THE ONE THAT HURDLED THE
WALL?
A YES.
Q ALL
RIGHT. DID YOU REALIZE, WHEN YOU HURDLED THAT
WALL, THAT THERE MIGHT SOME DAY BE A LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THE
PROPRIETY OF YOUR ACTIONS?
A NO.
Q DID YOU REALIZE,
WHEN YOU HURDLED THE WALL, THAT YOU
WERE INEXORABLY A PART OF THIS CASE FOR AS LONG AS IT MIGHT LAST?
A I DON'T THINK
I WAS THINKING ANY OF THOSE THINGS,
SIR.
Q IT DIDN'T
OCCUR TO YOU?
A NO.
Q HAD YOU RUN
ANY NUMBERS OF CARS OUT ON THE STREET,
OTHER THAN THE BRONCO, OR HAD THEY BEEN RUN BY SOMEONE TO YOUR
KNOWLEDGE?
A I MIGHT HAVE
RUN THE VEHICLE THAT WAS JUST EAST OF
THE ASHFORD GATE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A IT MIGHT HAVE
BEEN A FOREIGN -- A FOREIGN CAR. IT
MIGHT HAVE BEEN A 280 OR A CELICA. I'M NOT SURE WHICH IT WAS.
Q OKAY.
JAPANESE CAR OF SOME KIND?
A I THINK SO.
Q WHAT DO YOU
REMEMBER ABOUT IT?
A I THINK IT
WAS DARK-COLORED AND QUITE CLUTTERED IN
THE INTERIOR, AND I SOMEWHAT REMEMBER -- I THINK IT WAS
REGISTERED SOMEWHERE IN WEST HOLLYWOOD OR HOLLYWOOD.
Q AND
WHEN YOU RAN IT THROUGH THE COMPUTER, DID IT
DISGORGE A NAME AS THE REGISTERED OWNER?
A I DON'T RECALL
THAT.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER
HEARING THE NAME
BRIAN KAELIN BEFORE YOU EVER WENT OVER THE WALL?
A NO.
I DON'T RECALL THAT, NO.
Q OKAY.
WHEN YOU WENT OVER THE WALL, AND LET THE OTHER
OFFICERS IN, YOU PROCEEDED ULTIMATELY TO KATO KAELIN'S ROOM,
CORRECT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HEAR
ANY OF THE OTHER DETECTIVES INQUIRE OF
MR. KAELIN IF HE HAD SEEN MR. SIMPSON THAT EVENING?
A I'M NOT SURE
IF IT WAS CONVERSATION TO THAT EFFECT.
MORE LIKE "DO YOU KNOW IF MR. SIMPSON IS IN THE HOUSE OR THE MAIN
HOUSE?"
Q OKAY.
BUT YOU DID NOT HEAR ANY QUESTION ABOUT THE
WHEREABOUTS OF MR. SIMPSON AS MR. KAELIN MIGHT BE ABLE TO ATTEST
TO IT DURING THE RELEVANT PERIOD?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN THE OTHERS WENT TO ARNELLE'S ROOM AT KATO'S
SUGGESTION, I TAKE IT, YOU STAYED BEHIND?
A YES.
Q HAD ANYBODY
DIRECTED YOU TO STAY AND QUESTION KAELIN?
A NO.
Q THIS IS SOMETHING
YOU DECIDED TO DO ON YOUR OWN; IS
IT NOT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU GO
TO THE LEAD DETECTIVE, OR ANY OF THEM,
SINCE THEY WERE ALL YOUR SUPERIOR, AND ASK PERMISSION TO
INTERROGATE KATO KAELIN?
A NO.
Q DID YOU ASK
PERMISSION WITH ANY OF THEM TO TEST HIM
FOR SOBRIETY OR DRUG USE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU ASK
PERMISSION OF ANY OF THEM TO SEARCH HIS
PREMISES?
A NO, SIR.
Q NOW, WHEN
YOU BEGAN TO TALK TO KAELIN, YOU SAID YOU
DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS?
A NO.
Q DO YOU REPRESENT
THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT IT
WAS HIS CAR PARKED OUTSIDE THE ASHFORD GATE?
A NO, I DID
NOT KNOW THAT.
Q DID YOU EVER
QUESTION HIM ABOUT WHETHER HE HAD AN
AUTOMOBILE NEARBY?
A I DID NOT,
NO.
Q DID YOU VIEW
HIM AS A SUSPECT?
A HE DIDN'T
APPEAR TO BE SO MUCH A SUSPECT, BUT THEN
AGAIN, I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HIS FUNCTION WAS AT THE HOUSE.
Q DID YOU ASK
HIM WHAT CLOTHES HE HAD WORN THAT NIGHT?
A YES.
Q DID HE SHOW
YOU?
A YES.
Q DID YOU INSPECT
THEM LOOKING FOR SIGNS THAT MIGHT IN
SOME WAY TIE HIM TO THE HOMICIDES?
A I LOOKED AT
HIS CLOTHES AND HIS SHOES, YES.
Q OKAY.
YOU TURNED HIS SHOES OVER TO LOOK AT THE SOLES TO SEE
IF THERE WAS ANY BLOOD ON OR IN BETWEEN THE RIDGES OF THE SOLES,
CORRECT?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS THE
PURPOSE IN DOING THAT, DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN?
A TO SEE IF
THERE WAS ANY BLOOD ON THE SOLES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, IN INTERROGATING KAELIN WERE YOU WATCHING HIM
CAREFULLY TO SEE IF HE DID ANYTHING UNUSUAL OR MADE ANY LITTLE
SLIPS IN HIS TALKS WITH YOU THAT MIGHT CAPTURE YOUR INTEREST?
A WELL, MR.
KAELIN IS MR. KAELIN, AND I DIDN'T KNOW
THAT THEN, BUT HE IS RATHER DIFFERENT WHEN HE TALKS.
Q
I'M SURE THAT IS INTERESTING.
WOULD YOU TRY TO ANSWER NOW THE QUESTION I PUT TO
YOU.
A I WAS TRYING
TO. THE SPECIFIC QUESTION, SIR, ONCE
AGAIN?
Q THE SPECIFIC
QUESTION WAS WHILE YOU QUESTIONED MR.
KAELIN, OR SPOKE TO HIM, WERE YOU OBSERVING HIM FOR THE PURPOSE
OF PICKING UP ANY OF THE LITTLE SIGNALS THAT INTERROGATORS LOOK
FOR; NERVOUSNESS, CONTRADICTION, SLIPS OF THE TONGUE, THAT SORT
OF THING?
A NOT CONSCIOUSLY,
NO.
Q BY THE WAY,
HAD YOU FELT THE HOOD OF THE KAELIN
AUTOMOBILE, WHAT TURNS OUT TO BE THE KAELIN AUTOMOBILE, AS YOU
DID THE BRONCO?
A I DON'T BELIEVE
SO.
Q YOU WEREN'T
CONCERNED ABOUT THE RECENT HISTORY OF
THAT VEHICLE, I TAKE IT?
A WELL, I DIDN'T
FIND ANYTHING ON THAT VEHICLE OR
ANYTHING AROUND THAT VEHICLE THAT WAS REALLY VERY SUSPICIOUS.
Q AND YOU WEREN'T
CONCERNED WHETHER IT HAD BEEN
RECENTLY DRIVEN, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS PARKED VERY CLOSE TO MR.
SIMPSON'S PREMISES; ISN'T THAT SO?
A NO.
Q NOW, IN QUESTIONING
MR. KAELIN THERE WAS IN YOUR MIND
A VERY URGENT MATTER TO WHICH YOU NEEDED AN ANSWER, WAS THERE
NOT?
A WHICH QUESTION
WAS THAT?
Q THERE WAS
SOMETHING YOU REALLY WANTED TO KNOW WHEN
YOU WENT INTO HIS ROOM; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
A NO.
Q WELL, ONE
OF THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS A DETECTIVE
CAN ASK A WITNESS OR POTENTIAL WITNESS IS DID YOU NOTICE
SOMETHING UNUSUAL, CORRECT?
A I DON'T THINK
THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT. IT IS A
PRETTY GENERAL STATEMENT, SIR.
Q I SAID ONE
OF THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS A
DETECTIVE CAN ASK OF A POTENTIAL WITNESS IS HAVING NOTICED
ANYTHING EXTRAORDINARY OR UNUSUAL; ISN'T THAT SO?
A EXTRAORDINARY
I WOULD AGREE WITH.
Q OKAY.
NOW, AND YOU PUT THAT QUESTION TO MR. KAELIN, DIDN'T
YOU?
A YES.
Q BUT THERE
WAS ANOTHER ISSUE SO IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAD
TO CUT HIM OFF AND PUT ANOTHER QUESTION BEFORE HE COULD RESPOND,
TRUE?
A I DON'T BELIEVE
THAT IS THE SITUATION.
Q WELL, DO YOU
NORMALLY ASK SOMEBODY A QUESTION AND
THEN BEFORE THEY HAVE A FAIR CHANCE TO ANSWER YOU CUT THEM OFF
WITH ANOTHER ONE?
MS. CLARK: SOMEBODY DOES.
THE WITNESS: MR. KAELIN
WASN'T EXACTLY QUICKLY RESPONDING
TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS, AND THAT IS TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION
WHY I PROBABLY CAME UP WITH ANOTHER QUESTION.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
I NOW UNDERSTAND THAT THE REASON KATO
GOT QUESTION 2 BEFORE HE ANSWERED QUESTION 1 WAS THAT HE WAS SLOW
ON THE DRAW; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WHEN DID YOU
FIRST TELL SOMEBODY THAT, DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN?
A I WAS NEVER
ASKED THAT.
Q YOU NEVER
WERE?
A NO, SIR.
Q WELL, YOU
VOLUNTEERED THAT YOU CUT KATO OFF IN PRIOR
TESTIMONY, DIDN'T YOU?
A YES, SIR.
Q YOU DIDN'T
SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HIM BEING SLOW TO
RESPOND THEN, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q IS THAT SOMETHING
YOU RECENTLY REMEMBERED?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
IS IT SOMETHING YOU SIMPLY LEFT OUT?
A NO, IT IS
SOMETHING I WASN'T ASKED.
Q WAS THERE
ANY OTHER REASON TO INTERJECT QUESTION 2
ABOUT THE BRONCO?
A IT WAS A QUESTION
THAT WE WANTED ANSWERED. I THINK
IT WAS IMPORTANT TO KNOW IF MR. SIMPSON WAS HOME.
Q WELL, IT WAS
IMPORTANT TO YOU, WASN'T IT?
A IT WAS IMPORTANT
TO ALL OF US.
Q HAD YOU BEEN
DIRECTED BY ANYBODY TO MAKE THAT INQUIRY
OF KATO KAELIN?
A NO.
Q SO I TAKE
IT NOW AT THIS POINT, HAVING BEEN TO THE
BRONCO AND HURDLED THE WALL AND INTERROGATING KAELIN, YOU VIEWED
YOURSELF AS A DETECTIVE VERY MUCH IN THE CASE?
A WELL, I'M
ALWAYS A DETECTIVE, YES.
Q IN THE SIMPSON
CASE?
A (NO AUDIBLE
RESPONSE.)
Q IS THAT YOUR
PERCEPTION OF YOURSELF?
A YES.
I WAS ASKED TO ASSIST THOSE DETECTIVES, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, MR. KAELIN TOLD YOU THAT THAT CAR NORMALLY WAS
DRIVEN BY MR. SIMPSON, CORRECT?
A YES.
I BELIEVE HE SAID IT WAS O.J.'S VEHICLE.
Q AND YOU ASKED
WHETHER HE HAD DRIVEN IT THAT NIGHT?
A I BELIEVE
I DID, YES.
Q AND MR. KAELIN
RESPONDED HE THOUGHT SO, BUT HE WASN'T
SURE?
A (NO AUDIBLE
RESPONSE.)
Q CORRECT?
A I BELIEVE
SO, YES.
Q THEN YOU GOT
BACK TO THE QUESTION OF -- ABOUT UNUSUAL
OCCURRENCES, CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THE WORD
YOU USED IN SPEAKING WITH KATO WAS
"UNUSUAL," WASN'T IT?
A YES.
Q AND NOW THAT
HE FINALLY DID GET A CHANCE TO ANSWER,
WHAT DID HE SAY?
A HE SAID AT
ABOUT 10:45 HE HEARD A CRASHING ON HIS
WALL AND HE THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AN EARTHQUAKE. HIS
PICTURE SHOOK. AND THEN HE CONTINUED TO SAY THAT HE WENT OUT
TO
INVESTIGATE IT AND HE SAW A LIMO AT THE GATE.
Q WELL, HE NEVER
SUGGESTED TO YOU THAT HE WENT BACK
ALONG THE WALL BETWEEN THE WALL AND THE FENCE TO THE AREA OF THE
NOISE, DID HE?
A NO, SIR.
Q DID HE TELL
YOU HE STARTED TO DO THAT BEFORE MR.
SIMPSON LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT, BUT BECAUSE THE DOG WOULDN'T GO
WITH HIM HE WAS AFRAID AND CANCELLED THE INVESTIGATION? DID HE
MENTION THAT TO YOU?
A NO.
Q YOU DIDN'T
KNOW THAT AT THE TIME?
A DIDN'T KNOW
AT ANY TIME.
Q OKAY.
YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS HIS TESTIMONY IN THE
PRELIMINARY HEARING?
A NO, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU DISCUSS WITH KATO WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD EVER
HEARD SOUNDS LIKE THAT BEFORE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU DISCUSS
WITH HIM POSSIBLE CAUSES OF SUCH A
SOUND?
A NO.
Q DID YOU ASK
HIM TO RELATE IT TO ANY OTHER EXPERIENCE
SO THAT YOU MIGHT BETTER UNDERSTAND WHAT COULD OR COULD NOT HAVE
CAUSED THAT DISTURBANCE?
A NO, SIR.
Q DID YOU THEN
AND THERE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, DECIDE ON
YOUR OWN TO GO OUT AND INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THAT SOUND?
A I DECIDED
TO GO OUT AND TRY TO ORIENT MYSELF WITH THE
PROPERTY AND SEE WHERE THAT SOUND COULD HAVE COME FROM, YES.
Q DID YOU DECIDE
THAT YOU WOULD GO TO THE PROBABLE
SOURCE AS DESCRIBED BY MR. KAELIN BY RELATING IT TO AN AIR
CONDITIONER THAT PLAINLY STUCK THROUGH THE WALL?
A I THINK WHEN
I WENT TO THE SOUTH BORDER AND I SAW THE
PATH, I WALKED DOWN THE PATH AS A CONTINUATION OF DISCOVERING
WHERE THAT SOUND OF THAT WALL WAS LOCATED.
Q WE ARE STILL
BACK IN KATO'S ROOM.
I'M ASKING WHETHER OR NOT BEFORE YOU EVER LEFT THAT
ROOM YOU MADE A DECISION THAT YOU WOULD GO INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE
OF THE SOUND?
A I BELIEVE
WHEN I WALKED -- WHEN I WALKED HIM INTO THE
HOUSE AND I WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE, WHEN I TOLD PHIL, "WHY
DON'T YOU TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR," I THINK I HAD DECIDED TO
GO OUT AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THAT SOUND CAME FROM ON THE
OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE WALL, YES.
Q AM I TO UNDERSTAND
THAT THIS WAS A DECISION MADE
WHILE WALKING?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
WHEN YOU LEFT THE ROOM YOU HADN'T MADE THE
DECISION?
A I DON'T KNOW
EXACTLY WHEN IT HAPPENED, BUT I WOULD --
TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION WOULD BE WHEN I WAS WALKING INTO
THE HOUSE, YES.
Q BY THE TIME
THAT YOU GOT TO THE HOUSE YOU HAD MADE
THE DECISION, CORRECT?
A I DIDN'T REALLY
-- I CAN'T REALLY RECOLLECT EXACTLY
AT WHAT STEP I DID, BUT I WAS WALKING HIM IN, ASKED HIM TO SIT
DOWN.
AND AS I WALKED OUT, I WALKED OUT TO TRY TO FIGURE
OUT WHERE THAT SOUND WOULD HAVE COME FROM ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE WALL.
SO DURING THAT PERIOD BETWEEN -- BETWEEN KAELIN'S
ROOM AND THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE OR TELLING VANNATTER IF
HE WOULD TALK TO THE MAN AT THE BAR, BETWEEN THAT PERIOD I DID.
Q DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN, IS IT NOT TRUE THAT AS YOU DECIDED
TO WALK OUT TO THE SOURCE OF THE NOISE YOU DECIDED TO GO ALONE?
A I WAS ALREADY
ALONE, SIR.
Q WELL, YOU
WERE WITH KAELIN WHO COULD HAVE TAKEN YOU
OUT THERE, I SUPPOSE, COULD HE NOT?
A I'M SURE HE
COULD HAVE.
Q YOU WERE WITH
DETECTIVE VANNATTER, THE LEAD, WITH
WHOM YOU NEVER DISCUSSED YOUR PLANS, CORRECT?
A NO, I WASN'T
WITH HIM. I YELLED TO HIM. HE WAS IN
THE KITCHEN.
Q YOU WERE IN
THE SAME BUILDING WITH HIM, WERE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q YOU WERE THE
GENTLEMAN THAT HAD TO STAND AT DOROTHY
AND BUNDY FOR AN HOUR FOR LACK OF INSTRUCTION, ARE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU DECIDED,
WITHOUT CONFIDING IN ANYBODY, TO GO
ALONE BEHIND THAT BUILDING, CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
Q DID IT OCCUR
TO YOU THAT MR. KAELIN MIGHT BE ABLE TO
ASSIST YOU IN POINTING OUT THE EXACT SOURCE OF THE NOISE AS HE
RECONSTRUCTED IT?
A (NO AUDIBLE
RESPONSE.)
Q DID YOU THINK
OF THAT?
A NO.
Q NEVER THOUGHT
OF IT?
A NO.
Q DID IT OCCUR
TO YOU THAT THERE MIGHT BE DANGER
LURKING OUT THERE IN THE DARKNESS IN THE VICINITY OF THE SOUTH
WALL?
A AT THAT TIME?
Q YES.
A NO.
Q THAT THOUGHT
NEVER CROSSED YOUR MIND?
A IT WASN'T
PRESENT. IT WASN'T FOREMOST IN MY MIND,
NO.
Q HAD IT UP
TO THAT POINT CROSSED YOUR MIND THAT THERE
MIGHT BE WHAT YOU CALL A SUSPECT IN THE VICINITY, DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN?
A THERE WAS
A POSSIBILITY, BUT IT SEEMED VERY REMOTE.
Q HOW DID YOU
DISCARD THAT POSSIBILITY AT THE TIME YOU
DECIDED TO MAKE THIS SOLO INVESTIGATION?
A I DIDN'T DISCARD
IT; IT JUST WASN'T FOREMOST IN MY
MIND.
Q YOU ARE TELLING
ME AS A POLICE OFFICER THAT HAVING
ONCE BEEN APPREHENSIVE ABOUT POSSIBLE PHYSICAL HARM TO YOURSELF,
YOU WERE ABLE TO TURN THAT ASIDE?
A (NO AUDIBLE
RESPONSE.)
Q IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T UNDERSTAND
ABOUT THE PHYSICAL HARM, SIR.
Q WHAT CAUSED
YOUR CONCERN TO DISSIPATE, IF ANYTHING,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, ABOUT YOUR SAFETY?
A I STILL DON'T
UNDERSTAND, SIR.
Q YOU DON'T
UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION?
A NO.
AT WHAT POINT?
Q DO YOU UNDERSTAND
THAT AT SOME POINT PRIOR TO
CLIMBING THE WALL YOU EXPRESSED THE NOTION THAT THERE MIGHT BE
SUSPECTS AROUND?
DO YOU KNOW THAT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SUSPECTS ON THE PREMISES MEANS IN THIS CASE SOMEONE
WHO MIGHT BE CONNECTED WITH A DOUBLE MURDER, DOESN'T IT?
A YES.
Q THAT PERSON
SHOULD ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED BY ANY
INTELLIGENT OFFICER TO BE POTENTIALLY ARMED AND DANGEROUS; IS
THAT NOT SO?
A YES.
Q DID YOU GIVE
CONSIDERATION TO THE POSSIBLE EXISTENCE
OUT THERE IN THE SIMPSON SHADOWS OF SOMEONE WHO WAS ARMED AND
DANGEROUS?
A AT THAT POINT
IT WAS SOMEWHAT REMOTE, SINCE WE HAD
ALREADY ENTERED THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, HAVING ENTERED THE HOUSE SHIELDED YOU FROM ANY
DANGER BY THE SOUTH WALL? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TELLING US?
A OF COURSE
NOT.
Q YOU UNDERSTOOD
SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAD TAKEN PLACE OUT
THERE, CORRECT?
A NO.
THAT WAS KATO'S DESCRIPTION, SOMETHING UNUSUAL.
THAT WAS WHAT HE DESCRIBED.
Q WELL, YOU
THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO GO RIGHT
OUT THERE, DIDN'T YOU?
A I THOUGHT
IT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU NORMALLY ORDER PHIL VANNATTER AROUND?
A NO.
Q DID YOU IN
THIS CASE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU INSTRUCT
KATO KAELIN TO SIT ON A BAR STOOL?
A YES.
Q WHY DID YOU
INSTRUCT HIM TO DO THAT IN A HOUSE WHERE
YOU WERE THE GUEST AND HE WAS THE RESIDENT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASSUMES
FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR.
BAILEY: HAD YOU LEARNED BY THAT TIME THAT HE
LIVED IN THAT BUNGALOW?
A I THINK, YES,
I CONCLUDED THAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WELL, WHY WOULD YOU INSTRUCT HIM TO SIT ON A BAR
STOOL?
A BECAUSE I
WANTED HIM TO SIT THERE.
Q WHY DID YOU
WANT HIM TO SIT THERE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A SO DETECTIVE
VANNATTER OR ANOTHER DETECTIVE COULD
TALK TO HIM.
Q THAT WOULD
TAKE CARE OF TWO OF THEM, WOULDN'T IT?
A TWO OF WHO?
Q IF YOU INSTRUCT
VANNATTER TO GO AND TALK TO KAELIN,
THAT TIES UP TWO OF THE FOUR PEOPLE THAT WERE WITH YOU IN THE
HOUSE, OR THE FIVE, DOESN'T IT, HAVING A CONVERSATION?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT
CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT
EVERYBODY HAS GOT TO BE SOMEPLACE?
A I AGREE.
Q AND THAT ONE
PERSON CAN'T BE IN TWO PLACES?
A AGREED.
Q SO THAT IF
YOU CAUSED TWO PEOPLE TO JOIN TOGETHER IN
A CONVERSATION AT A SPECIFIC PLACE, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT THEY WILL
BE AT ANY OTHER PLACE UNTIL THE CONVERSATION IS OVER?
A I WOULD AGREE
WITH THAT.
Q OKAY.
NOW, I WILL ASK YOU ONE MORE TIME.
DID YOU USE WORDS OF INSTRUCTION TO PHIL VANNATTER
TELLING HIM, WITHOUT SUGGESTING ANY SUBJECT MATTER, GO TALK TO
KAELIN?
A NOT IN THAT
MANNER, BUT YES, I DID.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU HAD ALREADY FORMULATED A PLAN THAT YOU WERE GOING
TO LOOK OUT BEHIND THE BUILDING IN THE DARKNESS FOR SOMETHING,
CORRECT?
A NO.
Q YOU HAD NOT?
A I DIDN'T EVEN
KNOW IF THAT WAS ACCESSIBLE FROM THE
FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q DIDN'T YOU
TELL US THAT AS YOU WALKED FROM THE
BUNGALOW TO THE HOUSE YOU HAD MADE A DECISION THAT YOU WOULD GO
LOOK AT THE SOURCE OF THE NOISE?
A I WASN'T EVEN
--
Q I'M SORRY,
DID YOU SAY THAT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
WELL, THEN AT THE TIME YOU SAID, "PHIL, GO TALK TO
MR. KAELIN," YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY, WEREN'T YOU?
A YES.
Q YOU DIDN'T
HESITATE AT ALL? ONCE THAT UTTERANCE WAS
OUT OF YOUR MOUTH YOU KEPT RIGHT ON MOVING?
A YES.
Q YOU SAW PHILLIPS
ON THE TELEPHONE?
A YES, I BELIEVE
SO.
Q AND DID YOU
SEE DETECTIVE LANGE?
A I DON'T RECALL
IF I SAW HIM.
Q WAS HE IN
THE PROXIMITY OF ARNELLE SIMPSON APPARENTLY
ENGAGED IN CONVERSATION OF SOME SORT?
A HE COULD HAVE
BEEN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THAT IS FIVE PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE,
CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AFTER YOU
LEAVE? ALL ENGAGED IN DOING SOMETHING,
RIGHT?
A YES.
Q NOW, TAKE
US BACK, IF YOU WILL, TO YOUR INITIAL
TRAINING ABOUT THE BUDDY SYSTEM, BOTH MILITARY AND POLICE.
DID YOU NOT SAY THAT IT IS AXIOMATIC THAT YOU DON'T
GO IN ALONE IF DANGER COULD POSSIBLY BE PRESENT?
A WELL, CONSIDERING
CERTAIN SITUATIONS, THAT WOULD BE
DESIRABLE, YES.
Q LET'S LOOK
AT THIS SITUATION.
YOU WERE INVESTIGATING, WHAT YOU HAVE CALLED FROM
YOUR OWN TESTIMONY, AN EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT HOMICIDE, WEREN'T
YOU?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
PROBABLY THE MOST SERIOUS THAT YOU HAD
ENCOUNTERED AMONG THE ELEVEN ON WHICH YOU HAD WORKED? IS THAT
A
FAIR STATEMENT?
A YES, SIR.
Q OKAY.
YOU HAD SEEN EVIDENCE THAT SOMEBODY, EITHER PSYCHOTIC
OR PSYCHOPATHIC, HAD BRUTALIZED TWO HUMAN BODIES WITH SOMETHING,
CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU KNEW
THAT THAT SOMEONE COULD BE UNPREDICTABLE
AND DEADLY IF YOU WERE TO ENCOUNTER THEM, CORRECT?
A I DON'T THINK
WE KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE KILLER AT
THAT TIME, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THEY WOULD BE DANGEROUS,
CONSIDERING THE SCENE.
Q WOULDN'T YOU
DRAW AN INFERENCE THAT SOMEBODY CAPABLE
OF THAT KIND OF MURDER MIGHT NOT HESITATE TO TAKE YOU DOWN?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
SO AS YOU LEAVE THE BUILDING YOU LEFT THREE GUNS
BEHIND, DIDN'T YOU?
A THREE DETECTIVES,
YES.
Q THREE DETECTIVES,
EACH OF WHOM WAS CARRYING THE SAME
SIDEARM THAT YOU ARE WEARING TODAY, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THAT IS A
GLOCK AUTOMATIC PISTOL, IS IT?
A NO.
Q WHAT IS IT?
A I BELIEVE
ALL THREE OF THOSE DETECTIVES, ONE WAS
CARRYING A TWO-INCH .38 MODEL 36, ONE WAS CARRYING A SMITH AND
WESSON STAINLESS STEEL, AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER, I DON'T RECALL
WHAT HE WAS CARRYING. I WAS CARRYING A BERETTA.
Q ALL AUTOMATIC?
A YES.
Q EACH CAPABLE
OF FIRING SEVERAL SHOTS IN QUICK
SUCCESSION?
A YES.
Q NOW, HAD YOU
THOUGHT ABOUT ASKING ONE OF THOSE
FELLOWS TO GO WITH YOU, MAYBE SOMEONE WHO HAD A GROWN-UP
FLASHLIGHT?
A NO.
Q YOU NEVER
CONSIDERED THAT FOR A MOMENT?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, I WILL ASK YOU ONCE AGAIN: WAS IT NOT YOUR
PURPOSE TO BE IN THE AREA ALONG THE SOUTH WALL ALONE?
A NO, IT WASN'T.
Q IT JUST WORKED
OUT THAT WAY? IS THAT IT?
A I DIDN'T EVEN
KNOW THE SOUTH WALL WAS ACCESSIBLE.
Q NO.
IT JUST WORKED OUT THAT YOU LEFT THE HOUSE AND
MADE YOUR INVESTIGATION FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES OR MORE ALONE?
A THAT IS HOW
IT WORKED OUT.
Q THAT IS HOW
IT WORKED OUT.
YOU NOW WALK BACK THE PATHWAY TOWARD WHAT YOU THINK
WILL BE THE WALL WITH THE AIR CONDITIONER, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AT THAT POINT
YOU ARE SOLELY EXPECTING TO INQUIRE
INTO POSSIBLE SOURCES OF SOMETHING THAT THUMPED THE WALL AND MADE
A PICTURE SHAKE?
A THERE WAS
A POSSIBILITY, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU PROCEED SLOWLY AND WITH SOME CAUTION INTO
THIS AREA?
A YES.
Q HOW FAR AHEAD
OF YOU WOULD THIS LITTLE TEENY
FLASHLIGHT ILLUMINATE THE WAY?
A FIVE, SIX
FEET.
Q OKAY.
BUT IT WAS BRIGHT ENOUGH TO ALERT ANYONE IN THAT
DARKNESS THAT SOMEBODY WAS COMING CARRYING A LIGHT, WASN'T IT?
A YES, IT WOULD.
Q YOU COULD
SEE IT FROM QUITE A DISTANCE IF IT WERE
POINTED AT YOU?
A YES.
Q SO YOU PROCEED
ALONG THE WALKWAY PAUSING TO LOOK AT
THE STRUCTURE, WHAT YOU CALLED INDENTATIONS?
A YES.
Q AND YOU COME
UPON A GLOVE?
A EVENTUALLY,
YES.
Q YOU TOLD US
THAT YOU LEARNED IN SCHOOL THAT
FOOTPRINTS NOT VISIBLE TO YOU MIGHT BE RAISED BY A CRIMINALIST,
TRUE?
A THAT IS POSSIBLE,
YES.
Q WHEN YOU SAW
THE GLOVE DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THERE
COULD BE IN THAT AREA, EITHER WHERE YOU HAD JUST GONE OR IN THE
OTHER DIRECTION, SOME FOOTPRINTS THAT COULD HELP IDENTIFY THE
PERSON WHO MAY HAVE DROPPED IT THERE?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR.
HONOR, THIS IS ASKED AND
ANSWERED.
THE COURT: WE HAVE.
MR. BAILEY: WELL, I WOULD LIKE
TO PURSUE IT; FOUNDATIONAL.
THE COURT: BRIEFLY. BRIEFLY.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
DID IT OCCUR TO YOU?
A THAT WASN'T
ON MY MIND AT THAT TIME, NO.
Q DID IT OCCUR
TO YOU THAT IF YOU WALKED BACK AND FORTH
YOU MIGHT DAMAGE ANY EXISTING FOOTPRINT EVIDENCE IN THE LEAVES?
MS. CLARK: ASKED AND ANSWERED,
YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WE
HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS. THIS IS
THE THIRD TIME WE HAVE BEEN ON IT.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
I ASKED YOU YESTERDAY WHETHER OR NOT
YOU COULD HAVE, HAD YOU CHOSEN TO DO SO, TAKEN THE DETECTIVES
ALONGSIDE THE CHAINLINK FENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE AND SHOWN THEM
THE GLOVE BY SHINING YOUR LIGHT THROUGH IT.
COULD YOU HAVE DONE THAT?
MS. CLARK: AGAIN, ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T THINK WE
COULD HAVE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. GO
AHEAD AND ANSWER THE QUESTION.
SORRY.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T THINK ANY
-- ANY OF THE DETECTIVES,
INCLUDING MYSELF, COULD SEE IT THAT WELL FROM THAT LOCATION.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
DID YOU MAKE ANY EFFORT TO DO THAT
BEFORE WALKING OVER THE FOOT PATH?
A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER
GO DOWN THE CHAINLINK FENCE ON ITS SOUTH
SIDE?
A ON THE SOUTH
SIDE OF THAT RESIDENCE, YES.
Q NO, OF THE
FENCE SO THAT YOU COULD LOOK BACK THROUGH
IT TO THE SIMPSON PROPERTY?
A YES.
Q YOU DID?
A YES.
Q WHEN DID YOU
DO THAT? THIS IS OFF THE SIMPSON
PROPERTY I'M TALKING ABOUT NOW.
A YES, SIR.
Q YOU DID WALK
DOWN TO THE LITTLE
GARAGE THAT IS THE HOME KNOW KNOWN TO BE OCCUPIED
BY MISS LOPEZ?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
HOW FAR DOWN DID YOU GO?
A I WENT DOWN
ALONG THE CHAINLINK FENCE, ALONG THE
WHOLE SOUTH BORDER OF THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE AND THAT RESIDENCE TO
THEIR NORTH BORDER, WHICH WOULD BE THE SAME PROPERTY LINE.
I WALKED TO THE BACKYARD. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING OR
ANY EXPOSED AREAS. AND I WALKED BACK TOWARDS THE CYCLONE FENCE
BY THE BUILDING.
Q WHEN WAS THIS?
A AFTER I RETURNED
FROM BUNDY.
Q THIS IS IN
DAYLIGHT?
A YES.
Q BUT DID YOU
EVER DO THAT PRIOR TO RUNNING THE
DETECTIVES DOWN THE PATH TO LOOK AT THE GLOVE?
A NO.
Q DID
YOU NOTICE THAT WHEN YOU SAW THE GLOVE THERE WAS
AN OBJECT EQUIDISTANT FROM THE FENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
FENCE THAT WAS VERY PLAINLY VISIBLE THROUGH IT?
A YES.
Q SO THAT PRESUMABLY
IF YOU HAD CHOSEN TO DO IT YOU
COULD HAVE HAD THE DETECTIVE LOOK THROUGH THE FENCE AND HAD THE
SAME VANTAGE POINTS WITH RESPECT TO THE GLOVE, COULDN'T YOU?
A NO.
Q COULD NOT?
A NO.
Q WHAT IS THE
DIFFERENCE?
A IT WAS VERY
OVERGROWN, VERY DIRTY. THE LEAVES WERE
VERY THICK IN THE FLOWER BED AREA ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE.
IT WAS VERY HARD TO EVEN GET IN THERE.
I PERSONALLY TRIED TO GET INTO THAT AREA AND IT WAS
VERY DIFFICULT, VERY DIRTY.
Q COULD YOU
DO THAT?
A NOT BY CHOICE.
Q YOU MEAN IT
WAS INCONVENIENT?
A NO, IT WAS
UNNECESSARY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
IN ANY EVENT, YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE GLOVE AND
ASSOCIATING IT WITH THE KILLER AND NO ONE ELSE, CORRECT?
A I DIDN'T
KNOW THAT, BUT I THINK I WAS LEANING
TOWARDS THAT, YES.
Q WELL, YOU
CERTAINLY DIDN'T THINK A VICTIM HAD
TRAIPSED OVER THERE AND DROPPED THAT GLOVE THERE, DID YOU?
A I DON'T KNOW,
SIR.
Q DID YOU EVER
FOR ONE MINUTE,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHILE LOOKING AT THAT GLOVE, THINK, GEE, SOME
VICTIM MAY HAVE DROPPED THIS HERE?
A I DIDN'T KNOW
ANYTHING THAT THE EVIDENCE --
Q I ASKED YOU
WHETHER OR NOT YOU THOUGHT FOR EVEN AN
INSTANT THAT THAT MIGHT BE THE PRODUCT OF A VICTIM'S TRAVELS?
A I CAN'T SAY
A HUNDRED PERCENT THAT IT WOULD BE A
SUSPECT, SO THERE IS A SMALL PERCENTAGE THAT I SAID IT IS A
POSSIBILITY.
Q WELL, WHAT
IS THE RATIO? 99 TO 1?
A I WOULD PROBABLY
LEAN 75/25 WITH A SUSPECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU THEN PROCEEDED DOWN A DARKENED AREA WHICH
YOU NOW SAY HAD COBWEBS AT LEAST AT THE UPPER SECTION?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU ORIGINALLY
DESCRIBED THIS VENTURE, YOU
DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE COBWEBS BEING ONLY AT THE UPPER
PART OF THE WALL, DID YOU?
A I THINK THAT
IS THE ONLY PLACE I FELT THEM, SO I
WOULDN'T HAVE GONE INTO ANYTHING LOWER.
Q THAT WASN'T
MY QUESTION.
MY QUESTION WAS, WHEN YOU EARLIER DESCRIBED THIS IN
JULY, YOU DIDN'T MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THE LOCATION OF THE
COBWEBS, OTHER THAN BEING EAST OF THE POINT WHERE THE GLOVE WAS,
CORRECT?
A I THINK THAT'S
CORRECT, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WOULD YOU REVIEW WITH US, PLEASE, WHAT YOU DID
FOR THE FIFTEEN MINUTES -- NOW SEVEN AFTER 11:00 -- FOR THE
FIFTEEN MINUTES THAT YOU STAYED OUT THERE ALONE AFTER YOUR
DISCOVERY AND BEFORE YOU SOUGHT TO BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF
ANYONE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I'M SURE A LOT HAPPENED IN FIFTEEN MINUTES AND I
WOULD LIKE YOU TO DESCRIBE EVERY DETAIL, IF YOU CAN.
A I WALKED SLOWLY
DOWN THE PATHWAY GOING EAST TO THAT
POTTING OR THAT LARGE PLANT AREA THAT IS PROBABLY 25-FOOT SQUARE.
Q HOW LONG DID
THAT TAKE?
A THAT WAS PROBABLY
SEVERAL MINUTES BACK THERE BECAUSE
IT IS VERY OVERGROWN. I TRIED TO SEE FROM THE EAST PROPERTY,
IF
THERE WAS A FENCE. IT WAS VERY OVERGROWN. I'M NOT SURE
IF IT
WAS BUSHES OR IVY. I LOOKED IN THAT AREA, LOOKED FOR ANY
EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING THAT HAD BEEN DROPPED OR ANY BLOOD EVIDENCE.
Q WHERE DID
YOU LOOK?
A ON THE GROUND,
ON THE WALLS, THE PLANTS. I RETURNED
BACK WESTBOUND ON THE PATH.
Q WAIT JUST
A MINUTE. HOW MUCH OF YOUR FIFTEEN MINUTES
WAS SPENT BACK IN THE SMALL YARD THAT YOU VIEWED AS A SITUS FOR
POTTING PLANTS?
A SEVERAL MINUTES,
PROBABLY MORE THAN FIVE.
Q SEVERAL MOMENTS
HAS NO REAL DEFINITIVE MEANING.
COULD YOU PLEASE USE MINUTES OR SECONDS AND MINUTES TO DESCRIBE
EACH STEP THAT YOU TOOK.
HOW MANY MINUTES WERE YOU PRESENT ON THE FAR SIDE OR
EAST SIDE BETWEEN THE ALLEYWAY BETWEEN THE FENCE AND THE
BUILDING?
A TALKING ABOUT
THE PATHWAY, SIR?
Q YOU HAVE WALKED
HOW MANY FEET FROM THE GLOVE TO THE
END OF THE BUILDING?
A 75.
Q WELL, IF THE
NORMAL WALKING RATE IS 350 FEET A
MINUTE, WHAT WOULD YOU THINK YOUR RATE WAS AT THAT TIME THAT IT
TOOK YOU SEVERAL MINUTES TO GO 75 FEET?
A I DIDN'T TESTIFY
TO THAT, SIR.
Q I THINK YOU
JUST SAID IT TOOK SEVERAL MINUTES TO GET
TO THE END OF THE BUILDING A FEW MOMENTS AGO, DID YOU NOT?
A NO, I DID
NOT.
Q TELL ME NOW
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE?
A I JUST WALKED
TO THE END OF THE BUILDING AND I SPENT
SEVERAL MINUTES BACK IN THAT AREA.
Q OKAY.
A AT THE END
OF THE BUNGALOWS.
Q ONCE AGAIN,
WOULD YOU TRY TO HELP US AVOID THE USE OF
THE WORD "SEVERAL" WHICH CAN MEAN SEVERAL THINGS TO DIFFERENT
PEOPLE.
HOW MANY MINUTES WAS IT FROM THE DEPARTURE OF THE
GLOVE FROM THE TIME YOU LEFT THE SMALL YARD AT THE BACK OF THE
BUILDING?
A FIVE MINUTES.
Q YOU SPENT
FIVE MINUTE THERE LOOKING AROUND WITH YOUR
FLASHLIGHT?
A APPROXIMATELY.
Q YOU LOOKED
ON THE WALL, THE GROUND, YOU LOOKED FOR
BLOOD AND WHAT ELSE?
A ANYTHING THAT
LOOKED OUT OF PLACE OR SOMETHING THAT
DIDN'T BELONG.
Q WELL, IF THE
GLOVE WAS DROPPED BY THE KILLER, WHY
WERE YOU BACK AT THE WALL LOOKING FOR BLOOD?
A FIRST I WAS
LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT HAVE
COLLAPSED OR LEFT THE GLOVE, BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING OBVIOUS IN
THAT AREA.
Q
OKAY.
FIVE MINUTES IS ABOUT WHAT IT TOOK TO INVESTIGATE
THAT LITTLE YARD?
A APPROXIMATELY.
Q OKAY.
WHAT DID YOU NEXT DO?
A WALKED BACK
WESTBOUND ON THE PATH.
Q TO WHERE?
A TO THE AIR
CONDITIONER. I LOOKED AROUND THAT AREA.
Q HOW LONG DID
YOU SPEND LOOKING AROUND THE AREA OF THE
AIR CONDITIONER?
A I WOULD SAY
A COUPLE MINUTES, BUT I HAD TO BRING IT
DOWN TO MINUTES, TWO OR THREE MINUTES.
Q TWO OR THREE
MINUTES. TELL US WHAT YOU DID DURING
THAT PERIOD TO INSPECT THE AIR CONDITIONER AND IT SURROUNDINGS?
WHAT DID YOU LOOK AT?
A I LOOKED AT
THE AIR CONDITIONER TO SEE IF THERE WAS
ANYTHING DISTURBED, ANY BLOOD, ANYTHING LEFT THERE.
I SHINED MY LIGHT ON THE BLUE PAPER OBJECT ON THE
OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE. I LOOKED IN THAT AREA. I STEPPED
PAST
THAT AREA AND THEN WENT AROUND WHERE THE INDENTATION WAS FARTHER
WEST.
Q UH-HUH.
AND HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND THERE?
A PROBABLY MORE
TIME THAN I DID BACK IN THE AREA WITH
--
Q IN MINUTES?
A (NO AUDIBLE
RESPONSE.)
Q IN MINUTES,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A I'M TRYING
TO EXPLAIN, SIR. PROBABLY MORE IN THAT
AREA THAN IN THE POTTING AREA, SO I WOULD PROBABLY SAY IN EXCESS
OF FIVE MINUTES, MAYBE AS MANY AS SEVEN OR EIGHT MINUTES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT DID YOU DO BETWEEN FIVE AND SEVEN MINUTES BY THE
INDENTATION AREA, AS YOU CALL IT, TO COMPLETE YOUR INVESTIGATION?
A WELL, I BELIEVE
THERE IS AN ELECTRICAL BOX THERE AND
THERE SEEMS TO BE -- I THINK THERE IS AN ENTRY TO THE UNDERNEATH
OF THE HOUSE. I OPENED THAT. I TRIED TO LOOK IN THERE.
IT WAS
VERY DIFFICULT WITH MY FLASHLIGHT. IT WASN'T VERY POWERFUL.
I DECIDED NOT TO GO ANY FURTHER. I DIDN'T SEE ANY
EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING AT THE ENTRY. THE VOLTAGE BOX, I LOOKED IN
THAT. I LOOKED INTO THAT AREA FOR ANY TYPE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
AND I SAW NONE, SO I RETURNED TO THE HOUSE.
Q WHY WERE YOU
LOOKING IN THE VOLTAGE BOX AT THAT
POINT?
A I DON'T KNOW,
SIR. I WAS LOOKING FOR ANY AREA THAT
COULD HAVE HOUSED SOMETHING OR SOMEBODY.
Q THE VOLTAGE
BOX, YOU THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE SOMEBODY
IN IT?
A IT WAS
A VERY LARGE VOLTAGE BOX. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT
WAS --
Q THAT IS WHY
YOU OPENED IT?
A YES.
Q NOBODY THERE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU TRY
TO GO INTO THE DOOR THAT IS ACCESSIBLE
FROM THE FOOT PATH?
A WHICH DOOR
IS THAT?
Q ON THE SOUTH
SIDE OF THE HOUSE. DID YOU NOTICE A
DOOR THERE IN YOUR 15-MINUTE INVESTIGATION?
A I NOTICED
ONE ON THE GARAGE.
Q DID YOU NOTICE
ANY DOOR THAT WOULD LEAD INTO THE
HOUSE?
A I DON'T RECALL
IF THERE WAS ONE THERE, NO.
Q DID YOU TRY
THE DOOR THAT YOU DID SEE TO SEE IF IT
WOULD OPEN?
A NO.
Q YOU WEREN'T
INTERESTED IN WHETHER THE PERSON WHO
DROPPED THE GLOVE MIGHT HAVE USED THAT DOOR FOR EGRESS?
A I JUST DIDN'T
TRY THE DOOR. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE
DOOR ON THE GARAGE. I DON'T RECALL THE OTHER DOOR.
Q OKAY.
BUT YOU DID SPEND, BY YOUR OWN ESTIMATE, FIFTEEN
MINUTES LOOKING AROUND BEFORE NOTIFYING YOUR SUPERIORS OF WHAT
COULD BE A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, TRUE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, IT IS APPARENT, FROM THE WAY YOU HAVE DESCRIBED
YOUR ACTIONS BACK THERE, THAT YOU HAD NOT THE SLIGHTEST CONCERN
FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY; IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
A NO.
Q WELL, YOU
DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT IT, DID YOU?
A YES.
Q WHAT?
A I'M CAPABLE
OF PROTECTING MYSELF. ONCE I WAS
COMMITTED I REALLY HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO GO FORWARD.
Q YOU DIDN'T
HAVE THE OPTION, HAVING DISCOVERED WHAT
COULD WELL HAVE BEEN THE DEPOSIT, WITTINGLY OR OTHERWISE, OF A
DANGEROUS KILLER, TO GO BACK AND GET SOME HELP?
THAT OPTION WASN'T THERE?
A THE OPTION
WAS THERE.
Q WHY DID YOU
DECIDE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT THERE WAS
NO NEED TO GO GET ONE OF THE GUNS THAT WAS IN THE HOUSE TO
ACCOMPANY YOU?
A I DON'T THINK
IT WAS A NEED. I THINK IT WAS A
JUDGMENT CALL AT THAT TIME.
Q IT WAS
A JUDGMENT CALL, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, BASED ON
THE FACT THAT YOU WELL KNEW THERE WAS NO CAUSE FOR CONCERN; ISN'T
THAT SO?
A NO, THAT IS
NOT SO.
Q DO YOU ORDINARILY
CONDUCT INVESTIGATIONS OF WHAT
COULD BE A DANGEROUS NATURE IN THIS FASHION?
A SOMETIMES.
Q AND YOU DO
NOT PARTAKE OF THE ASSISTANCE OF YOUR MORE
EXPERIENCED COLLEAGUES WHEN THEY ARE AVAILABLE, CORRECT?
A IF THEY ARE
IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE, OF COURSE I WOULD.
Q WELL, IMMEDIATELY
AVAILABLE. WOULD YOU SAY WITHIN
THIRTY SECONDS' TIME SATISFIES YOUR DEFINITION OF IMMEDIACY?
A AT THAT TIME,
NO.
Q COULD YOU
NOT HAVE GONE FROM THAT GLOVE TO THE FRONT
DOOR OR THE KITCHEN IN LESS THAN A MINUTE, VERY, VERY EASILY THAT
NIGHT, IF YOU HAD CHOSEN TO DO SO?
A YES, I COULD
HAVE.
Q OKAY.
THE DECISION NOT TO DO SO WAS YOURS, WAS IT NOT?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE DURING THAT 15-MINUTE PERIOD
THAT YOU HAVE NOT YET DESCRIBED TO US?
A NO.
Q IN THE STUDIES
OF BLOOD THAT YOU HAD IN THE SCHOOL
WHERE YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE ROUND DROPS, DID YOU LEARN ANY OF THE
OTHER PROPERTIES OF BLOOD THAT MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO A
DETECTIVE, PARTICULARLY ONE IN HOMICIDE CASES?
A I DON'T BELIEVE
THE SPECIFICS YOU ARE ASKING. I
DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ASKING, SIR.
Q WHAT HAPPENS
TO BLOOD WHEN IT LEAVES THE BODY AND IS
ON SOME SURFACE AND IS EXPOSED TO AIR?
A I WOULD ASSUME
THAT IT WOULD COAGULATE.
Q AND THEN?
A DRY.
Q THE MOISTURE
THAT IS PART OF THE BLOOD EVAPORATES IN
TIME, DOES IT NOT?
A YES.
Q WHAT DID YOU
LEARN, IF ANYTHING, ABOUT THE RATE AT
WHICH BLOOD DRIES AT SIXTY DEGREES FAHRENHEIT, AS IT WAS THAT
NIGHT, BY YOUR OWN STATEMENT?
A I DON'T RECALL
ANYTHING IN THAT AREA.
Q DID YOU EVER
LEARN ANY PARAMETERS OR FACTS ABOUT THE
DRYING OF BLOOD?
A NOT THAT I
RECALL, NO.
Q WOULD YOU
NOT AGREE, FROM YOUR OWN HUMAN EXPERIENCE,
QUITE APART FROM WHAT YOU LEARNED IN DETECTIVE SCHOOL, THAT THE
LONGER THE BLOOD IS EXPOSED, THE MORE LIKELY IT IS THAT IT WILL
BE DRIED?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE GLOVE,
DID YOU ASSOCIATE IT WITH THE NOISE THAT KATO HAD HEARD OR SAID
THAT HE HEARD AT 10:45 P.M.?
A I BELIEVE
WITH THE LOCATION OF THE AIR CONDITIONER, I
THOUGHT YES.
Q DID YOU THINK
THAT THAT NOISE MIGHT SOMEHOW HAVE BEEN
TIED IN WITH THE EVENT THAT CAUSED THAT GLOVE TO BE THERE?
A I THOUGHT
IT COULD HAVE BEEN, YES.
Q PERHAPS SOMEONE
WAS BACK THERE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE
AREA AND BUMPED INTO THE WALL AND DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A THAT WOULD
BE ONE CONCLUSION, YES.
Q WELL, DID
YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
A I BELIEVE
THAT SOMEONE OBVIOUSLY HAD LEFT IT THERE.
Q DID YOU THINK
THAT THAT MIGHT BE A PERSON BUMPING THE
WALL WHO DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THAT YOU THEN HAD A POSSIBLE TIME PIN OF THE EVENT
ITSELF? IF THE NOISE AND THE DEPOSIT OF THE GLOVE OCCURRED
TOGETHER, THEN THIS HAD BEEN THERE SINCE QUARTER OF 11:00, HADN'T
IT?
A YES, SIR.
Q YOU WERE THERE
AT 6:15, WEREN'T YOU?
A APPROXIMATELY,
YES.
Q THAT IS SEVEN
AND A HALF HOURS, ISN'T IT?
A YES.
Q THAT IS ENOUGH
FOR BLOOD TO DRY, ISN'T IT?
A UNDER CERTAIN
CONDITIONS, YES, I'M SURE IT WOULD BE.
Q UNLESS IT
IS ENCASED IN PLASTIC OR RUBBER AND
EVAPORATION IS STOPPED, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?
A NO.
Q DIDN'T IT
SEEM STRANGE TO YOU THAT AFTER SEVEN AND A
HALF HOURS THAT GLOVE STILL SHOWED MOIST STICKY BLOOD, DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN?
A NO.
I KNEW NOTHING AT THAT TIME WHEN IT WAS
DEPOSITED OR LEFT THERE.
Q YOU DIDN'T?
A NO.
Q IS THIS THE
FIRST TIME TODAY THAT ANYONE HAS BROUGHT
TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT APPARENT ANOMALY?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT
ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE
AND CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
ALL RIGHT.
IS IT THE FIRST TIME TODAY THAT YOU HAVE THOUGHT
ABOUT THE WET BLOOD ON THE GLOVE WHEN YOU SAW IT AT 6:15?
THE COURT: THAT ASSUMES FACTS
NOT IN EVIDENCE. THAT IS
NOT THE TESTIMONY.
MR. BAILEY: I'M SORRY?
THE COURT: THAT WASN'T THE TESTIMONY.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
WHEN DID YOU FIND THE GLOVE?
A THE GLOVE
ON ROCKINGHAM?
Q YES.
A AT APPROXIMATELY
SOMETIME BETWEEN 6:05, 6:10, 6:15.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, IS TODAY THE FIRST TIME THAT ANYONE HAS BROUGHT
TO YOUR ATTENTION POSSIBLE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE PRESENCE OF MOIST
OR STICKY BLOOD ON THE GLOVE AT THAT TIME ON THAT DAY?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NO ONE HAS EVER DISCUSSED THIS WITH YOU BEFORE, I
TAKE IT?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU KNOW, BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU WERE BACK THERE
DURING YOUR 15-MINUTE INVESTIGATION, THAT YOU APPARENTLY MISSED A
DOOR THAT GOES INTO THE LAUNDRY ROOM OF THE HOUSE?
A NO.
Q ARE YOU LEARNING
FOR THE FIRST TIME TODAY THAT SUCH A
DOOR EXISTED THAT MORNING?
A I HAVE SEEN
SCHEMATICS THAT I BELIEVE THERE IS A DOOR
SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THE GARAGE AND THE AIR CONDITIONER, BUT I DID
NOT REMEMBER SEEING IT AT THAT TIME.
Q OKAY.
IN OTHER WORDS, AS YOU MADE YOUR INQUIRY OF THE
INDENTATIONS, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A DOOR THERE THAT YOU NEVER
SAW?
A POSSIBLY,
YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT THE FIVE TO SEVEN-MINUTE
INQUIRY THAT YOU MADE IN THAT AREA, INCLUDING AN ELECTRICAL BOX,
WAS SOMEWHAT CURSORY, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A ABSOLUTELY,
SIR.
Q OKAY.
HAD YOU -- BY THE WAY, DID YOU SEE ANY STEPS BACK
THERE LEADING SOMEWHERE?
A ON THE PATH,
SIR?
Q ADJACENT TO
IT?
A THERE MIGHT
HAVE BEEN TWO STEPS BY THE GARAGE DOOR.
Q ANYWHERE ELSE?
A I DON'T RECALL.
Q DO YOU KNOW
WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE STEPS THAT LEAD
UP TO THE LAUNDRY ROOM DOOR?
A I CAN'T EVEN
REMEMBER VISUALIZING THE DOOR, SO I
COULDN'T TELL YOU.
Q IF THERE WERE,
IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT IN YOUR FIVE TO
SEVEN-MINUTE INQUIRY IN THAT AREA, YOU NEVER NOTICED THEM?
A THAT WOULD
BE FAIR TO SAY.
Q OKAY.
NOW, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT AT NO TIME THAT NIGHT
DID YOU INQUIRE AS TO THE WHEREABOUTS OF MR. SIMPSON DURING THE
PRECEDING SIX OR EIGHT HOURS?
A WELL, I HAD
HEARD, BUT I DIDN'T DO MUCH INQUIRING,
NO.
Q YOU NEVER
INQUIRED OF KATO?
A I'M SORRY?
Q YOU NEVER
INQUIRED OF KATO?
A THAT MORNING
OR THAT AFTERNOON?
Q NO, THAT MORNING?
A I NEVER TALKED
TO MR. KAELIN EVER AGAIN.
Q NO, I'M TALKING
ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE IN HIS
BUNGALOW QUESTIONING HIM? YOU NEVER PUT THE QUESTION TO HIM
ABOUT MR. SIMPSON?
A I'M SORRY,
I DON'T UNDERSTAND. MR. SIMPSON WHAT?
Q DID YOU EVER
ASK KATO IF HE KNEW WHERE MR. SIMPSON
HAD BEEN THE PRIOR EVENING?
A I DON'T BELIEVE
SO, NO.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN HE TOLD YOU ABOUT SEEING A LIMO, DID YOU
INFER OR INQUIRE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THAT WAS TO TAKE MR.
SIMPSON SOMEWHERE?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
Q DID YOU LEARN
AT SOME POINT THAT MR. PHILLIPS,
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, HAD REACHED HIM BY TELEPHONE IN CHICAGO?
A YES, LATER
IN THE MORNING I DID.
Q WHEN WAS THAT?
A LATER IN THE
MORNING, MAYBE AN HOUR LATER, A HALF
HOUR.
Q DID YOU LEARN
FROM OTHER WITNESSES IN THE COURSE OF
THE DAY THAT HE HAD LEFT THE PROPERTY AT AROUND 11:00 TO GO TO
THE AIRPORT?
A I DON'T BELIEVE
I HEARD A TIMELINE THAT DAY ABOUT
WHEN HE LEFT.
DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY AND
DETECTIVE LANGE WAS ON BUNDY, SO I DIDN'T TALK TO ANYONE EXCEPT
FOR PHILLIPS.
HE MIGHT HAVE MENTIONED WHEN HIS FLIGHT LEFT, BUT
THAT IS ABOUT IT.
MR. BAILEY: OKAY.
YOUR HONOR, I HAVE PREPARED, FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF
COUNSEL AND THE COURT AND THE PARTIES, NINE COPIES OF THE
TESTIMONY OF THIS WITNESS AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING AND I WOULD
LIKE PERMISSION TO HAVE THEM PASSED OUT SO THAT WE CAN ALL FOLLOW
THE NEXT PHASE OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MAY THAT BE DONE?
THE COURT: YES.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
MR. BAILEY: WAS A COPY GIVEN TO
THE WITNESS AND THE COURT?
THE COURT: I HAVE ONE.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
BY THE WAY, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, BEFORE
WE TURN TO THIS EARLIER INSTANCE OF TESTIMONY, TWO MATTERS THAT I
OVERLOOKED.
ONE WAS DID YOU EVER GO TO THE SECOND FLOOR OF THE
SIMPSON HOME LOOKING FOR BLEEDING OR OTHERWISE TROUBLED VICTIMS?
A NO.
Q DID ANY OF
YOUR TEAM, THE FOUR DETECTIVES, TO YOUR
KNOWLEDGE, GO AND INSPECT THE BALANCE OF THE HOUSE?
A I DO NOT KNOW.
Q WAS IT NOT
YOU WHO SAID TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, "WE
HAVE AN EMERGENCY HERE. THERE MAY BE PEOPLE BLEEDING TO DEATH
INSIDE"?
A YES.
Q ALL
RIGHT.
AND ONCE YOU GOT INSIDE, YOU DIDN'T GO TO SEE WHO
MIGHT BE BLEEDING TO DEATH ON THE SECOND FLOOR; IS THAT RIGHT?
A I DIDN'T MAKE
ENTRY AT THAT TIME.
Q OKAY.
YESTERDAY YOU RELATED SOME BLOOD STAINS THAT YOU SAW
AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DOOR OF THE BRONCO.
MY UNDERSTANDING WAS IT WAS ON THE SILL?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU CLAIM
THAT THESE MARKS, BRUSH MARKS I THINK
YOU DESCRIBED THEM AS, WERE VISIBLE WITH THE DOOR CLOSED?
A YES.
Q IT IS YOUR
POSITION THAT IN YOUR PRESENCE AT LEAST
THE BRONCO WAS NEVER OPENED OR ANY OF ITS DOORS OR WINDOWS WHILE
YOU WERE THERE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU NEVER SAW ANYONE ELSE DO IT?
A NO, I DID
NOT.
Q DID YOU AT
SOME POINT GET TO SHOW CRIMINALIST FUNG
THE LOCATION OF THE BRUSH MARKS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED?
A YES, I DID.
Q COULD YOU
TELL THE COURT AND JURY WHEN THAT OCCURRED
AND WHO WAS PRESENT?
A DENNIS
FUNG I BELIEVE ARRIVED AT THE ROCKINGHAM
ESTATE 7:30, EIGHT O'CLOCK, SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT AREA.
IT WAS THEN THAT I SHOWED HIM THE ITEMS ON THE
BRONCO.
Q YOU HAD COME
BACK FROM BUNDY?
A YES, SIR.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU TAKE HIM OUT INDIVIDUALLY TO THE BRONCO,
POINT THEM OUT?
A YES, I DID.
Q WAS THE DOOR
OPENED ON THIS OCCASION BY EITHER OF
YOU?
A NO.
Q AND YOU NEVER
SAW THAT DOOR OPENED TO THIS DAY, HAVE
YOU?
A NO, I DID
NOT.
MR. BAILEY: OKAY.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, A PRELIMINARY
HEARING IN THIS CASE TOOK PLACE EARLY IN JULY, DID IT NOT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU TESTIFIED
BOTH ON JULY 5TH AND JULY 6TH, IN
RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS BY MS. CLARK AND DEAN UELMEN FOR THE
DEFENSE?
A YES.
Q SEVERAL DIRECT
AND SEVERAL CROSS-EXAMINATIONS.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND WERE YOU
TRYING AT THAT TIME, TO THE VERY BEST
YOUR ABILITY, TO BE ACCURATE IN EACH OF YOUR VARIOUS UTTERANCES?
A YES, I WAS.
Q OKAY.
NOW, COULD YOU TURN, PLEASE, TO PAGE 41 OF THE
TRANSCRIPT THAT HAS BEEN PLACED IN FRONT OF YOU.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q I ASK YOU
TO LOOK AT LINE 14.
YOU WERE ASKED BY MISS CLARK THE NATURE OF A CERTAIN
CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHILE YOU WERE STILL
WITHOUT THE PREMISES, CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOUR ANSWER
WAS:
"I TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER, I SAID 'WE GOT A
REAL -- WE GOT AN EMERGENCY, WE GOT A PROBLEM -- WE GOT -- WE
DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE PEOPLE INSIDE THAT ARE IN DANGER, DYING,
BLEEDING TO DEATH. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. I DON'T CARE WHOSE
HOUSE THIS IS. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. WE DON'T KNOW IF
WE
HAVE A MURDER, SUICIDE, A KIDNAPPING, ANOTHER VICTIM,' AND PHIL
AGREED AND WE TOOK OUR OPINIONS TO DETECTIVE LANGE AND PHILLIPS
AND DISCUSSED THE POSSIBILITIES."
DO YOU RECALL THAT TESTIMONY?
A YES, SIR.
Q DOES THAT
ACCURATELY DESCRIBE THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH
YOU DETECTIVES BECAME CONCERNED OR AT LEAST EXPRESSED YOUR
CONCERN ABOUT POSSIBLE VICTIMS INSIDE?
A SOMEWHAT.
Q SO THAT THIS
IDEA WAS INITIATED BY DETECTIVE MARK
FUHRMAN, WAS IT NOT?
A NO.
THIS WAS A CONVERSATION BETWEEN VANNATTER AND
MYSELF AND THAT IS A COLLECTIVE CONVERSATION.
Q THIS IS COLLECTIVE?
A YES.
THOSE ARE MY FEELINGS ABSENT OF THE
CONVERSATION -- THE RECIPROCAL OF DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
Q I SEE.
WELL, NOW DO YOU SEE ANYTHING, BEGINNING AT
LINE 15, ABOUT VANNATTER SPEAKING TO YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q OKAY.
DO YOU SEE THAT MOST OF WHAT I HAVE JUST RECITED IS
IN QUOTES AND THUS ATTRIBUTED BY THE COURT REPORTER TO YOU
TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
DO YOU NOTICE THAT?
A YES, SIR.
Q OKAY.
NOW, IS IT NOT THE FACT THAT THE FIRST ONE TO SUGGEST
AN EMERGENCY AND THE NEED TO DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW WAS YOU?
A I DON'T KNOW
IF IT WAS ME THAT FIRST SUGGESTED IT.
VANNATTER AND I WERE BOTH TALKING ABOUT IT. I DON'T KNOW HOW
IT
CAME DOWN EXACTLY TO THAT POINT.
Q OKAY.
AFTER AUTHORITY HAD BEEN OBTAINED FROM THE NECESSARY
BRASS -- I THINK COMMANDER BUSHEY WAS IT?
A YES, SIR.
Q -- TO GO IN
WITHOUT A WARRANT --
A COMMANDER
BUSHEY HAD NO SAY IN THAT, SIR.
Q OH, HE DIDN'T?
A NO.
Q VANNATTER
DIDN'T CHECK WITH ANYONE?
A NO.
Q HE MADE THE
DECISION?
A HE MADE THE
DECISION.
Q OKAY.
WHEN HE DECIDED THAT YOU WERE RIGHT AND IT WAS
NECESSARY TO GO IN, HOW WERE YOU ELECTED TO GO OVER THE WALL?
MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION.
THAT MISSTATES THE
TESTIMONY, "DECIDED THAT HE WAS RIGHT."
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. BAILEY:
HOW WERE YOU ELECTED TO BE THE ONE TO
GO OVER THE WALL?
A PHIL MADE
A STATEMENT THAT, "WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO
GO IN. HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT?" AND I SAID, "WELL, I
WILL GO
OVER THE WALL."
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU VOLUNTEERED TO DO THAT IN RESPONSE TO HIS QUERY
HOW CAN WE ACCOMPLISH IT, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ON PAGE 46, LINE 15, WHEN YOU WERE WITH KATO KAELIN
IN HIS ROOM, YOU SAY THAT YOU STAYED BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO
MR. KAELIN WAS AND:
"I WASN'T SURE IF HE WAS EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE
THERE. I STAYED WITH HIM AND ENGAGED HIM IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT
WHO HE WAS AND WHAT HE WAS DOING THERE AND A FEW OTHER THINGS."
MY QUESTION IS, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A I BELIEVE
SO, YES.
Q DID YOU DETERMINE
THAT KATO KAELIN, FROM TALKING TO
HIM, WAS A PROPER PERSON TO BE IN THAT HOUSE AT THAT TIME?
A I DON'T --
I NEVER SAW ANY IDENTIFICATION AS FAR AS
AN ADDRESS. HE MIGHT HAVE SAID HE LIVES THERE OR HE STAYS THERE.
Q OKAY.
WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 48, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q IT IS THE
LATTER PART OF A LONG ANSWER WHICH GOES
ALMOST TWO FULL PAGES.
I'M INTERESTED IN ONLY A FEW LINES. I WILL READ THE
WHOLE QUESTION AND ANSWER IF YOU PREFER.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DO THAT?
A YES, SIR.
Q OKAY.
THE ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS:
"DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM," MEANING
KATO KAELIN, "AT THAT TIME," 47 LINE 12.
"ANSWER: YES. SIMULTANEOUS WITH -- I WAS
WALKING -- I WALKED TO THE BATHROOM WHICH I COULDN'T SEE INTO
FROM WHERE I WAS STANDING AT THE DOORWAY. I WALKED IN JUST TO
MAKE SURE NOBODY WAS IN THERE AND I OPENED UP THE CLOSETS TO MAKE
SURE NO ONE WAS STANDING IN THE CLOSETS. I ENGAGED HIM IN
CONVERSATION WHILE I WAS DOING THAT. I NOTICED A PILE OF CLOTHES
TO THE -- IF YOU WERE LYING IN THE BED, IT WOULD BE THE RIGHT
SIDE, NEXT TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BED AND A PAIR OF SHOES.
I
ASKED HIM IF THOSE WERE THE CLOTHES HE WORE AND HE SAID 'LAST
NIGHT' AND HE SAID 'YES' AND I SAID, 'MIND IF I LOOK AT THEM?'
HE SAID, 'NO.' I PICKED UP THE SHOES. I LOOKED AT
THE SOLES.
I PICKED UP THE CLOTHES AND I LOOKED AT THE CLOTHES. THERE
DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THEM. I PUT THEM BACK
WHERE THEY WERE AND I WAS STILL TALKING TO MR. KAELIN. I ASKED
HIM IF THERE IS ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT BEFORE
HE ANSWERED -- BEFORE I LET HIM ANSWER, I ASKED, 'WHO DRIVES THE
BRONCO?' HE SAYS, 'WELL, THAT'S O.J.'S.' I SAID, 'IS THAT
ALL?
IS THAT THE ONLY PERSON THAT DRIVES IT?' AND HE GOES, 'YEAH.'
I
ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT HAPPENED THE PREVIOUS
NIGHT. HE SAID, 'WELL, ABOUT QUARTER TO 11:00 I HEARD SOME
CRASHING ON MY WALL AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AN